Saturday, February 16, 2013

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland LDS telling some whoppers




Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)  as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost l, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time.to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

Is Jeffery R Hollands insulating that God is completely comprehensible to him ? The Book of Mormon would disagree. 

Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.


James E. Talmage

Articles of Faith

Chapter 2

God is Omniscient—By Him matter has been organized and energy directed. He is therefore the Creator of all things that are created; and "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." 58 His power and His wisdom are alike incomprehensible to man, for they are infinite. Being Himself eternal and perfect, His knowledge cannot be otherwise than infinite. To comprehend Himself, an infinite Being, He must possess an infinite mind. Through the agency of angels and ministering servants He is in continuous communication with all parts of creation, and may personally visit as He may determine.


Mormon 9:16

16 Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?

Job 37:5

5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

Isaiah 40:12

12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

[God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ] The Creeds when using these words always have them as singular and person or persons is plural . 


All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE  but DISTINCT IN PERSONS



Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]



A Christian would say 1X1X1=1  three separate persons One God

A Mormon would say 1+1+1=3   three separate persons three separate gods

Jesus said Mark 12: 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:



Duet 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:" Here the word 'one' is ECHOD in Hebrew. meaning composite unity. or plural ones.

Gen 2:"24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." same word is used here, ECHOD






Joseph Smith said 
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

Mormons take the words of Joseph Smith over the words of Jesus


  Notice how Jeffrey Holland also says this ,  and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time.to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal , I see only the Word "Co-Eternal" in the Creeds not the rest of his list ?
Holland actually goes to a non-creedal statement of the Westminster Confessions formulated in 1646 and not one of the Creeds he mentioned around 1st to 5th century to expand his misinformation and straw man , further whopper






We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.” How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?

We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

[Orthodox Christianity also believe it is self evident  that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, but only One God not three like LDS teach]

 With these New Testament sources and more  ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.” On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”  And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”  “My father is greater than I.”

Seems like Elder Jeffrey R. Holland is foisting a huge lie about the Creeds since they do teach three separate and distinct persons not one person like he would insinuate.
 Orthodox Christianity would say that was heresy  http://carm.org/heresies to believe their the same person yet Holland implies that the Trinity teaches God the Father and Jesus our same person.

1 John 1 
  1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—

2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you
that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.


 Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.  For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood;

, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”  “My father is greater than I.”

Notice how Athanasian Creed says Jesus was inferior to the Father, like Elder Jeffrey R. Holland is nothing more than a blind guide building up strawmen like previous LDS blind guides.




 If you notice The Athanasian Creed teaches also that the persons are not confounded with means the Father is not the Son or the Son isn't the Father, which is taught in the Book of Mormon

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.  Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.  And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.







Substance is a synonym for God meaning only ONE GOD not three like Mormons teach 

One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

Mosiah 15

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son

  4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Mosiah 16:

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.


Ether 3:14  Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.


Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
  These four verses above would be confounding the persons, something the Creeds would teach was heresy , confounding means mixing them up.





In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards

Page 18 under the heading  John's Testimony of the Personality of God

Says "This accords also with the report of John's baptism of Jesus:

16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and £He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?

President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.' ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical


James Talmage states: "This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person" (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)

 [The Trinity does say One Substance but not One person. Here James Talmage tells another big whopper like Jeffrey Hollands, must be using same play book.]


1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313

 Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

 Below is Christians explaining the Trinity, notice how none say Jesus and God the Father our same person

 E. Calvin Beisner

God in Three Persons

The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature  of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance )  of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit  p 24

“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God”  p 153

It is this relation of Christ to the Father and the Spirit which Dr John Robinson takes as one of the strong-est indications of triunity in the Godhead:

 At the Incarnation… the Godhead is revealed for the first time as existing in three distinct relationships. It is these differences of relation that make necessary a doctrine of the Trinity, not differences of “character” or modes working. The Old Testament, too knew God in different “characters” but it was not forced to a Trinity Theology…We cannot begin with God creating, God redeeming, God sanctifying, or any such collection of attributes, and proceed to identify these with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Rather, one must start with the three Persons, no more and no less, which are required by the three relations at the Incarnation

When we have said these three things, then---that there is but one God, that the Father and the son and the spirit is each God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person---We have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

Page 40

 Perhaps the most famous Trinitarian reference from the second century is the statement of Theophilus [ 116-181], another writer who is only shortly removed from the last of the apostles. His is the first use of the word “trinity” in Christian literature which is extant:

 In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His Wisdoms.” Vol 2 pp 100 101 Epistles to Autolycus,II WV

 Page 53

 The concept of Trinity in unity, three distinct persons who are the one God, is then firmly entrenched in Christian thought by the middle to second century

 Page 54

Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three Co-herent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are one essence, not one Person, as it is said, “ I and my Father are One “ in respect of unity of substance, not singularity of number. Roberts and Donaldson, anti-Nicene Fathers Vol. 3, p. 621, against Praxeas, xxv

Page 57

The New Testament teaches us that there is one God and that this God is three distinct persons, the Father the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that these persons are co-equal and co-eternal. This is also the only possible interpretation of the Nicene Creed as it was intended by its authors. Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity as taught in the Nicene Creed is an accurate representation of the teachings of the New Testament” pp 155-156

E. Calvin Beisner

 
John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]

Page 104-105

1.       There is Only One God

2.       The Father is God;

3.       Jesus Christ, the Son, is God

4.       The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God

5.       The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.



TRINITY

The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14).

(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

  Trinity

used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. 
 first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

 we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such un-Biblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture. The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated definition, but in fragmentary allusions; when we assemble the disjecta membra into their organic unity, we are not passing from Scripture, but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of Scripture. We may state the doctrine in TRINITY The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14).

(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


   1. we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such un-Biblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture. The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated definition, but in fragmentary allusions; when we assemble the disjecta membra into their organic unity, we are not passing from Scripture, but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of Scripture. We may state the doctrine in technical terms, supplied by philosophical reflection; but the doctrine stated is a genuinely Scriptural doctrine.

(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/eternal-life-to-know-our-heavenly-father-and-his-son-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Above is another straw man argument by another LDS leader propagating same lies

 God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]


         Another two Christian Apologists going through same talk by Jeffrey Holland


http://capro.info/lds-general-authority-jeffrey-holland-on-the-trinity-with-a-point-by-point-rebuttal/


http://www.courageouschristiansunited.org/blog/Responding-to-LDS-Apostle-Jeffrey-R-Holland-on-Are-Mormons-Christians-43788



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