Saturday, February 1, 2014

The sad discernment of the Mormon top brass

It is fully proved in all the revelations that God has ever given to mankind that they naturally
love and admire
righteousness, justice and truth more than they do evil. It is, however, universally received by
professors of religion as a Scriptural doctrine that man is naturally opposed to God. This is not
so. Paul says, in his Epistle to the Corinthians, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of
God," but I say it is the unnatural "man that receiveth not the things of God." Paul, in another
place, says, "if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world
hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine unto them." That which was, is, and will
continue to endure is more natural than that which will pass away and be no more. The natural man is of God. We are the natural parents, and spiritually we are the natural children of the Father of
light and natural heirs to his kingdom; and when we do an evil, we do it in opposition to the
promptings of the Spirit of Truth that is within us. Man, the noblest work of God, was in his
creation designed for an endless duration, for which the love of all good was incorporated in his
nature. It was never designed that he should naturally do and love

JD 9:305, Brigham Young, June 15, 1862

it is not natural for men to be evil. All men
admire that which is good; all men admire virtue and truth, whether they possess them themselves or not, they
still admire that which is good in others. You may go to the most wicked man that exists and talk to him upon
this subject, and he will say at once, "I am not an example, but such a man is and there are certain principles
that I admire, and if I could see them carried out I should be glad." Who does not admire the truth? And if
men carry out good principles in their lives, all others admire both them and the principles. Who is there that
does not admire virtue, no matter how lascivious they may be themselves? However dishonest the man may
be himself, there is a feeling of admiration of honesty in others. This feeling prevails among the children of
men. The only thing with them, and that which puzzles is, how shall the world be redeemed? How shall
mankind be purified and correct principles be introduced among the human family? Men know that their
hearts are evil, and they are ever ready to charge this upon others. The question now is, how shall good and

John Taylor
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10

The Lord himself in these latter days has spoken of the place and mission of Adam: ". . . Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days." (D. & C. 27:11; 88:112; 116:1) "The Lord God . . . hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One." (D. & C. 78:15-16) These are eloquent words, which could not well have been spoken of a sinner; only of one who has filled his mission well. Indeed, in the true gospel of Jesus Christ there is no original sin.

Evidence and Reconciliation John Widstoe    Mormon so-called Apostle

“Since there is no such thing as original sin, as that expression is used in modern Christendom, it follows that children are not conceived in sin. They do not come into the world with any taint of impurity whatever.” – Bruce R. McConkie (April 1977 Ensign)



1 Cor 2: 14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 4:
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Romans 3: 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Romans 7:24King James Version (KJV)

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Even the Book of Mormon disagrees with Mormons. But when does it ever agree with them ?

Mosiah 3:19

 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

2 Nephi 2:

21 And the days of the children of amen were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.


Scripture is God-breathed

2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." The word "inspired" is literally "God-breathed." This is an interesting phrase, since it implies that the Scriptures are from the mouth of God.

Likewise, Peter says in 2 Pet. 1:21, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Notice that Peter is stating that prophecy is not the product of human will. Instead, prophecy occurs by those moved by the Holy Spirit.

God spoke through the mouth of the prophets. We see in Acts 3:18, "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He has thus fulfilled." Clearly, Luke, the writer of Acts, understood the Old Testament Scriptures to be spoken by God through the prophets. In fact, we find other references to the Old Testament referring to God speaking through the prophets.

•Words spoken through the prophet Jeremiah are referenced in Matt. 2:17, 27:9.
•Words spoken through the prophet Isaiah are referenced in Matt. 1:22, 8:17; John 12:37-40.
•Words spoken through the prophets Moses and Hosea are referenced in Matt. 2:15.
•Words spoken through the prophet David are referenced in Matt. 13:34-35.
•Words spoken through the prophet Zechariah are referenced in Matt. 21:4.
•Words spoken through the prophets generically are referenced in Matt. 26:56.

Because the prophets speak for God, write Scripture, and make prophecies, the Scriptures must be fulfilled. It is the written Scriptures that are referenced here. It is not some vague and ambiguous reference to some areas of the Bible that "contain" the word of God.

below is an example of God breathed versus man breathed and wrong

Written hundreds of years before Jesus's birth, The Book of Micah is a prophetic book in the Tanakh/Old Testament, and the sixth of the twelve minor prophets. It records the sayings of Micah, Mikayahu, meaning "Who is like Yahweh?", an 8th-century B.C. Micah 5

New King James Version (NKJV)

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”


1800 years after his birth by a man and not God breathed

Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Would the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing this song and mean it since Adore means Worship ? Do Mormons lift there hands to the LORD

1 Timothy 2:8
I want men everywhere to lift holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing

Lamentations 2: 19
Arise, cry out in the night, as the watches of the night begin; pour out your heart like water in the presence of the Lord. Lift up your hands to him for the lives of your children, who faint from hunger at the head of every street.

Lamentation 3:41
Let us lift up our hearts and our hands to God in heaven, and say:

Psalm 28:2
Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place

Psalm 63:4
I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands.Psalm 134 :2
Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD.

D&C 88
130 And when he cometh into the house of God, for he should be first in the house—behold, this is beautiful, that he may be an example—
131 Let him offer himself in prayer upon his knees before God, in token or remembrance of the everlasting covenant.
132 And when any shall come in after him, let the teacher arise, and, with uplifted hands to heaven, yea, even directly, salute his brother or brethren with these words:

 Oct. 1978

I Have a Question--Ensign

In the Book of Mormon, the word Lord generally refers to Christ, but there are other times when it seems to refer to God the Father. How can one distinguish the meaning in a particular case?

Jesus is also a God. The Father is Supreme, but Jesus is also a member of the Godhead, and is by his calling a God. (See Heb. 1:8–12.) The Prophet Joseph stated: “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” (Teachings, p. 370.)

In fact, very few sacred titles are used exclusively for one or the other. We can ask, for example, “Who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?” We may think first of Jesus since the Father delegated responsibility for this earth to him. (See 1 Ne. 19:10 and 1 Cor. 10:4.) We must keep in mind, however, that some other prophets have understood this and yet they have designated God the Father as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (See Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30; and Acts 22:14.)

So I didn’t wonder that my student reached the conclusion he did. He discovered that with “divine investiture” positive identification is sometimes difficult, if not impossible. As he put it, “Sometimes it seems as if God the Father is speaking and then it seems to be Christ. Even angels speak as if they were Christ.” (See Rev. 22:8–9, 12–16.)

The prophets themselves probably knew to whom they spoke, but the identity of the messengers may have become confused in translation or transcription.

It seems to me, however, that as long as we are persuaded by the Spirit that the message is divine, we should not be overly concerned about the identification of the messenger.

 Very interesting how confused these Mormons are about the God they worship, they just can't make up there mind who the messenger is they seem very whimsical about who there etching ears are listening too

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem. If Christ could do these things as a spirit, the Holy Ghost can carry out the mind and will of the Father and the Son as a spirit. We are taught plainly that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, are One God, that is one Godhead.

Joseph Fielding Smith said, “All revelation since the fall has come through Jesus Christ, who is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. In all of the scriptures, where God is mentioned and where he has appeared, it was Jehovah who talked with Abraham, with Noah, Enoch, Moses and all the prophets. He is the God of Israel, the Holy One of Israel; the one who led that nation out of Egyptian bondage, and who gave and fulfilled the Law of Moses. The Father has never dealt with man directly and personally since the fall, and he has never appeared except to introduce and bear record of the Son .” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:27.)

Hinckley and the Utahite Mormons had handed over the "blessing" for Joseph Smith III given to him by his father and obtained from the Thomas Bullock collection:

 Representatives of the Reorganized Church were in the audience - the document was one of Mark Hoffman's forgeries.

"The gift of discernment enables a bishop or branch president to know truth, to understand the differences between good and evil, and even to know what is in a person’s heart. Because he has this gift, we can seek his counsel and he can tell us what the Lord would have us do to grow spiritually."
- Official LDS Church Manual "Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood", Part A, History and Organization of the Priesthood, 8: Duties of the Bishop and the Branch President, 57."

"It is abundantly clear that presiding priesthood leaders are given the gift of discernment."
- Elder Gene R. Cook, “Seek Out Your Spiritual Leader,” Ensign, May 1978, 64

"I give my testimony that the prophets of this day have the qualities of the prophets of old and the other prophets of this dispensation. Each of these prophets has humbly and prayerfully sought to know and follow God’s will in his personal ministry. We declare with soberness, and yet with the authority of God in us vested, we have a prophet today. The President of the Church, as a prophet, is God’s representative on earth and is appointed to lead His church. Christ is the head of his Church today, just as he was in ancient times. The Lord has said that this is 'the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased' (D&C 1:30)."
- Apostle Robert D. Hales, "Hear the Prophet’s Voice and Obey," Ensign, May 1995, Page 15

In the end, folks, it was Jerald Tanner who had the gift of discernment, and fingered the forgeries of Mark Hoffman. Jerald Tanner was a devout Christian who had left the Mormon cult.

"The Gods who dwell in the Heaven...have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state....they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever." (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)

Would you think fallen means sinner Which gods and does that include Jehovah and God the Father

In the 1844 LDS publication, Times and Seasons, volume 5, pages 613-614, Joseph Smith reiterated that God was an exalted man and that Mormon men could also become Gods. This teaching is well documented, as is their claim that God is not a spirit being, but that he has a body of flesh and bone.

God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life.” (Second Counselor in the First Presidency, Marion G. Romney, as per Salt Lake Tribune, April 3, 1977.)

Saved from sin


M. Russell Ballard, "The Miracle of the Holy Bible," Ensign, May 2007, 80-82

  We are true and full believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His revealed word through the Holy Bible.

  My brothers and sisters, the Holy Bible is a miracle! It is a miracle that the Bible's 4,000 years of sacred and secular history were recorded and preserved by the prophets, apostles, and inspired churchmen.

  It is a miracle that we have the Bible's powerful doctrine, principles, poetry, and stories. But most of all, it is a wonderful miracle that we have the account of the life, ministry, and words of Jesus, which was protected through the Dark Ages and through the conflicts of countless generations so that we may have it today.

  It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men's hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.

  The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ.


The mistranslation of the Bible is suggested in the eighth Article of Faith. Talmage explains, "There will be, there can be, no absolutely reliable translation of these or other scriptures unless it be effected through the gift of translation, as one of the endowments of the Holy Ghost... Let the Bible then be read reverently and with prayerful care, the reader ever seeking the light of the Spirit that he may discern between truth and the errors of men" (A. of F., p. 237).


Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth Prophet of Mormonism also said: "There is not one principle pertaining to the salvation of men that is so clearly stated in the Bible, as it has come down to us, that men do not stumble over — not one thing. There is not one principle they can be united on that has been so clearly stated that they do not find their interpretations of it conflicting" (D. of S., Vol. I, p. 278).


Joseph Smith also declared, "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (T. of P.J.S., p. 327). And LDS Apostle Mark E. Peterson said, "Many insertions were made, some of them 'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated" (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).


LDS Apostle Orson Pratt also wrote:


If it be admitted that the apostles and evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote.... Add all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, IN HIS RIGHT MIND could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original? (Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45, 47; read all of this pamphlet for a detailed attack upon the Bible).


In addition to this charge of an unreliable translation, Mormon leaders say that important doctrine as well as whole books have been deleted or added by corrupt men. Joseph Smith declared, "Upon my return from Amhurst Conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled" (T. of P.J.S., pp. 9-11).


The B. of M. also says, "Many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible... Thou fool, that shall say a Bible, we have got a Bible and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?" (II Nephi 29:3,6).


Notice that only "fools" trust in the Bible alone! Verse 10 of the same passage goes on to say, "Wherefore, because ye have a Bible ye need not suppose it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written." The B. of M. declared that more revelation was needed and thus made way for its own existence!


The B. of M. also predicts a great and abominable church has "taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away" (I Nephi 13:26).


The bottom of that page of the B. of M. dates this perversion of the gospel around 600 B.C., which was long before the "gospel of the Lamb" was even given in the New Testament! LDS claim the B. of M. has restored these "plain and precious things," and that it is the "fulness of the gospel" (B. of M. I Nephi 13:34-35; D. & C. 20:8-9; 27:5). But they are hard-pressed to point to anything that has been "restored" by the B. of M. Our chapter on the B. of M. discusses this problem further.


Apostle Orson Pratt also claimed, "The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike" (The Seer, p. 213).


Pratt made another familiar LDS charge against the Bible, saying:


The gathering together of the few scattered manuscripts which compose what is now termed the Bible was the work of uninspired man which took place centuries after John finished his manuscript. Among the vast number of professedly inspired manuscripts, scattered through the world, man, poor, weak, ignorant man assumed the authority to select a few, which according to his frail judgment, he believed or conjectured were of God, but the balance not agreeing, perhaps, with his peculiar notions of divine inspiration, were rejected as spurious. The few, selected from the abundance, were finally arranged into one volume, divided into chapter and verse, and named the Bible (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p. 3).


Pratt goes on to say that this selection or rejection of the books of the Bible was done by a vote of those uninspired men as they met in councils (Ibid., pp. 36-38). Pratt shows indignation at the very idea of the early church fathers voting to accept or reject scripture. But, Talmage wrote concerning LDS scripture, "the works adopted by the vote of the church as authoritative guides in faith and doctrine are four: the Bible, the B. of M., the D. & C., and the P. of G.P." (A. of F., p. 7). Therefore, the LDS Church accepted their four books of scripture by a vote! LDS must explain why it was wrong for the early church to vote on scripture and yet it was right for the LDS Church. Actually, about all those early church councils did was officially vote to endorse the books of the Bible then in use by the church. The Holy Spirit had already made the selection and guided them into all truth as Jesus promised He would in John. 16:13. There is absolutely no evidence that the books of the Bible were selected or rejected the way Pratt says they were.


Pratt also condemned the Catholic Bible, declaring, "That the Romanists have continued in their apostasy until the present day is demonstrated from the fact that they have not added one single book to their canon since they first formed it" (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p. 38).


Pratt said the same thing about the "Harlot Daughters," i.e. Protestants (Ibid., p. 40). We will discuss what the LDS have added to their original scriptures in our chapter "More LDS Scripture and Revelation."


Orson Pratt also attacked the Bible saying, "The voices of several hundred jarring, contending, soul-sickening sects, were constantly sounding in your ears; each one professing to be built upon the Bible, and yet each one differing from all the rest. Under this confused state of things, you have peradventure, involuntarily exclaimed: can the Bible be the Word of God! Would God reveal a system of religion expressed in such indefinite terms that a thousand different religions should grow out of it?" (Divine Authenticity of the B. of M., p. 47).


What would Pratt say now that over 200 splinter groups have come out of Joseph Smith's original church? (See Denominations that Base Their Beliefs on The Teachings of Joseph Smith by Kate Carter). Neither LDS prophets nor their scripture have eliminated church splits!


It is strange that Mormonism attacks the reliability of the Bible while Talmage calls it their "first" book of doctrine! But, not all LDS leaders agree on which LDS scripture is the most important. For example, Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the LDS Church wrote, "In my judgment there is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the B. of M. and the Bible, and the P. of G.P. which we say are our standards in doctrine. The book of D. & C. to us stands in a peculiar position above them all" (D. of S., Vol. III, p. 198).


Obviously the D. & C. and the Bible cannot both be in "first" place above other LDS scriptures! But Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, said, "I told the brethren that the B. of M. was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book" (T. of P.J.S., p. 194).


Thus, while Dr. Talmage said the Bible is the most important book to Mormons, Joseph Fielding Smith said the D. & C. was the most important, and the founder of Mormonism declared the B. of M. was the book that would get men nearer to God. As Mormons now practice their faith, Joseph Fielding Smith is really the most accurate because LDS believe the Bible has been corrupted and therefore is not too reliable. Furthermore, the B. of M. does not teach much Mormon doctrine, as our chapter on the B. of M. shows.


LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explains their view of "scripture:" "The Church uses the King James Version of the Bible, but acceptance of the Bible is coupled with a reservation that it is true only insofar as it is translated correctly (Eighth Article of Faith). The other three (The B.of M., D.& C., and P. of G.P.), having been revealed in modern times in English, are accepted without qualification" (M.D. p. 764). This statement clearly shows that the LDS leaders question the reliability of the Bible, but not their other three books of scripture. However, three of their four books of scripture have been changed several times. The last time was in 1981. The only book of scripture they did not change was the Bible! Since it is the Bible they claim has all the problems, their actions are a bit strange. LDS leaders made changes (including doctrinal changes) in their B.of M., D. & C., and P. of G.P. when those books were already perfect enough to be "accepted without qualification." Why couldn't they correct the corruptions in the Bible if they really exist? Could it be that LDS leaders know that the Bible is not as corrupt as their own three books?


According to LDS scripture, every LDS president is "a seer, a revelator, a translator and a prophet" (D. & C. 107:91-92, M.D. pp. 591-592). Yet, even though Joseph Smith re-translated the Bible, the LDS accept only the King James Version as their official Bible!


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