Friday, April 29, 2022

The reason there is no witnesses to the First Vision story


1839: This is the official account of the First Vision, first published by Joseph Smith in the March 15th 1842 edition of the Times and Seasons. It appears in the Pearl of Great Price as Joseph Smith History. The account used here is from the 1839 manuscript history which is in the handwriting of James Mulholland.

Apparently the First Vision was manufactured after the Lectures of Faith was published 

Saturday, January 1, 2022

Samson's life tells us Mormon's rules, Ordnances, principles are wrong

Samson never kept the LDS rules of no alcohol, baptism, short hair, etc and so didn't obey the covenants established by himself and God. He married pagan women so he didn't establish an eternal marriage yet is recorded in Hebrews 11 as a great man of faith.

Samson didn't even keep his Nazarite vows of no alcohol touching his lips, no touching of dead animals, and his hair not cut  

Hebrews 11:

23: And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Monday, July 26, 2021

Mormon claims about Ezekiel 37: 15-17

 From Ezek. 37:15-17 Mormons claim: (1) the sticks are really scrolls; (2) the stick of Judah is the Bible; (3) the stick of Joseph is the B. of M.; and, (4) the joining of these sticks means the joining of two writings - the Bible and the B. of M.. But the Hebrew word translated "stick" means a piece of wood, not a scroll. The Lord also told Ezekial precisely what to write on the two sticks, and it was not the "Bible" and the "B. of M." He was told to write the words "for Judah" on one stick and "for Joseph" on the other. The Bible speaks of books and scrolls in many verses, such as: Is. 8:1; 34:4; Jer. 36:2; Ezek. 2:9; 3:1-3; Rev. 6:14. It also speaks of sticks in Num. 17:1-8; 15:32; I Kings 17:12. But God never interchanges these words. The people asked in Ezek. 37:18, "Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these?" That question is answered in the next few verses, when the Lord declared the two Kingdoms of Israel would be brought together as one nation with one King again. In fact, the entire chapter is a prophecy of the restoration of Israel to her own land after captivity. For LDS to claim a couple of verses are about the B. of M. in the middle of that message would be out of place. Furthermore, it was Ezekial who wrote on both sticks. Did Ezekial write both the Bible and the B. of M.? If not, the Mormon interpretation does not fit this text.

 Mormons also claim that Is. 29:1-4 predicts the coming forth of the B. of M. Apostle LeGrand Richards says of v. 4, "Obviously, the only way a dead people could speak 'out of the ground' or 'low out of the dust' would be by the written word, and this people did through the Book of Mormon. Truly it has a familiar spirit for it contains the words of the prophet of God of Israel" (M.W. &W., p. 69). There are 15 Old Testament references to "familiar spirits," and every one of them refer to mediums in witchcraft, including Is. 29:4 (Lev. 20:6; Duet. 18:10-12). If the LDS believe the B. of M. has a "familiar spirit," they are identifying it with witchcraft! But, this text is really talking about the destruction of Ariel or Jerusalem, not about the B. of M.

 LDS claim Is. 29:11-12 was fulfilled when Smith received and translated the gold plates. Martin Harris mortgaged his farm to pay for publishing the first edition of the B. of M. Harris desired to verify Smith's translation, so he took a copy of some of the "Reformed Egyptian" characters with Smith's translation to Professor Charles Anthon of Columbia University. LDS claim that Anthon pronounced the translation correct. Part of this event is recorded in the P. of G. P. J.S. History 1:63-65. But, Harris' visit to Anthon was very different from Is. 29:11-12. This text shows: (1) This is a parable and the subject is a vision, not a book. (2) The vision of the prophets of that day had become as meaningless to the people as the words of a book that was sealed. Isaiah was referring to the condition of the people at that time, and not about a book of some future time. (3) According to Harris, the professor said the translation was correct. Anthon could have said this only if he read it. But, Isaiah said the learned man could not read the book because it was sealed! The only way the professor knew the plates were "sealed" was because Harris told him they were. (4) In Isaiah the book went to the learned man first - then to the unlearned. But the Mormon story has the book of gold plates delivered first to the unlearned (Smith) who copied some of the characters with his translation on a piece of paper which was taken to the learned (Anthon). In Isaiah, the same "sealed book" was taken to both the learned man and the unlearned man. But, Anthon did not receive any book - sealed or unsealed! (5) In Isaiah, the book was delivered to the unlearned and he simply said, "I am not learned," and made no effort to read it or translate it. But, Smith claimed he did read the book, even though he was unlearned.

Apostle LeGrand Richards wrote, "Professor Anthon did not realize that he was literally fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah" (M.W. & W., p. 50). But, Anthon did not believe he was fulfilling prophecy, because in a letter to E.D. Howe, a Painsville, Ohio, newspaper editor, he relates the event as a hoax and a scheme to "cheat the farmer [Harris] of his money" (and Harris did lose his money).

1. By what name are the sacred writings of the Bible commonly known?
“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures,The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?”Matt. 21:42.

2. What other title is given this revelation of God to man?
“And He answered and said unto them, My mother and My brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.”Luke 8:21.

3. How were the Scriptures given?
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God.”2 Tim. 3:16.

4. By whom were the men directed who thus spoke for God?
“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”2 Peter 1:21.

5. What specific instance is mentioned by Peter?
“Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled,which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.”Acts 1:16.

6. How does David express this same truth?
“The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and His word was in my tongue.”2 Sam. 23:2.

7. Who, therefore, did the speaking through these men?
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.”Heb. 1:1.

8. For what purpose were the Scriptures written?
“For whatsoever things were written afore time were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.”Rom. 15:4.

9. For what is all scripture profitable?
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”2 Tim. 3:16.

10. What was God's design in thus giving the Scriptures?
“That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”Verse 17.

11. What estimate did Job place upon the words of God?
“Neither have I gone back from the commandment of His lips; I have esteemed the words of His mouth more than my necessary food.”Job 23:12.

12. Upon what evidence did Jesus base His Messiahship?
“And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.”Luke 24:27.

13. What three general divisions did Jesus recognize as including all the writings of the Old Testament?
“And He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me.”Verse 44.

14. What does God's character preclude Him from doing?
“In hope of eternal life, which God,that cannot lie, promised before the world began.”Titus 1:2.

15. What is God called in the Scriptures?
“He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment:a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.”Deut. 32:4.

16. What, therefore, must be the character of His word?
“Sanctify them through Thy truth:Thy word is truth.”John17:17.

17. What test should therefore be applied to every professed teacher of truth?
“To the law and to the testimony:if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”Isa. 8:20.

18. What does God design that His word shall be to us in this world of darkness, sin, and death?“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.”Ps. 119:105.

19. To what extent has God magnified His word?
“Thou hast magnified Thy word above all Thy name.”Ps.138:2.

NOTE.—God did this by backing His promises with an oath based upon Himself. Heb. 6:13, 14. By this He pledged and placed at stake His name, or character, for the fulfilment of His word.

20. In what is the true poetry of life to be found?
“Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.”Ps. 119:54.

21. How long will the word of God endure?
“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand forever.”Isa. 40:8. “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.”Matt. 24:35.

Joseph Smith  wrote: In the fly-leaf of his "version" appear these words: "The Holy Scriptures, translated and corrected by the spirit of revelation by Joseph Smith, Jr. the seer," 1927 Edition.

Doctrine of Salvation Vol.3:191

Was the Bible Completed by Joseph Smith?

Yes, in 1833 The official Church Historian, Andrew Jenson wrote: "Joseph Smith the Prophet finished the translation of the Bible."

Church Chronology, 1899, p. 9.


According to the D.H.C., Vol. I, pp. 324 and 368, and Times and Seasons, Vol. VI, p. 802, Joseph Smith completed a translation of the Bible. Those sources and Andrew Jensen's LDS Church Chronology show that the New Testament was finished February 2, 1833, and the Old Testament on July 2, 1833. In a revelation given on January 10, 1832, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are commanded to "continue the work of translation until it is finished" (D. & C. 73:4). Obviously this was not talking about the B. of M. which was published in 1830. Nor could it be talking about the Book of Abraham Papyrus which Joseph Smith saw for the first time on July 3, 1835 (D.H.C., Vol. II, p. 235). Furthermore, Joseph Smith was commanded by God in D. & C. 124:89 to "publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth" (see also D. & C. 94:10 and 104:58).

Saturday, April 3, 2021

The Mormon Gospel versus the Bible explanation


Romans 3:21

Yes, all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious ideal;

yet now God declares us “not guilty” of offending him if we trust in Jesus Christ, who in his kindness freely takes away our sins.

For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God’s anger against us. He used Christ’s blood and our faith as the means of saving us from his wrath. In this way he was being entirely fair, even though he did not punish those who sinned in former times. For he was looking forward to the time when Christ would come and take away those sins.

And now in these days also he can receive sinners in this same way because Jesus took away their sins. But isn’t this unfair for God to let criminals go free, and say that they are innocent? No, for he does it on the basis of their trust in Jesus who took away their sins.

Then what can we boast about doing to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him.

So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.

Here are but many explanations on what the Gospel is by Mormons 

 Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.



Monday, March 22, 2021

Mormons teach ex nihilo is heresy

    Bible Doctrine Essential Teachings of the Christian Faith Wayne Grudem

biblical evidence for creation out of nothing. The Bible clearly requires us to believe that God created the universe out of nothing. (Sometimes the Latin phrase ex nihilo, “out of nothing,” is used; it is then said that the Bible teaches creation ex nihilo.) This means that before God began to create the universe, nothing else existed except God himself. This is the implication of Genesis 1:1, which says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” The phrase “the heavens and the earth” includes the entire universe. Psalm 33 also tells us, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host by the breath of his mouth. . . . For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth” (Ps. 33:6, 9). In the New Testament we find a universal statement at the beginning of John’s gospel: “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made” (John 1:3). The phrase “all things” is best taken to refer to the entire universe (cf. Acts 17:24; Heb. 11:3). Paul is quite explicit in Colossians 1when he specifies all the parts of the universe, both visible and invisible things: “In him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him” (Col. 1:16). Hebrews 11:3 says, “By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible” (NASB). This translation (as well as the NIV) most accurately reflects the Greek text. Though the text does not quite teach the doctrine of creation out of nothing, it comes close to doing so, since it says that God did not create the universe out of anything that is visible. The somewhat strange idea that the universe might have been created out of something that was invisible is probably not in the author’s mind. He is contradicting the idea of creation out of previously existing matter, and for that purpose the verse is quite clear. nothing, no matter in the universe is eternal. All that we see—the mountains, the oceans, the stars, the earth itself—all came into existence when God created them. This reminds us that God rules over all the universe and that nothing in creation is to be worshiped instead of God or in addition to him. However, were we to deny creation out of nothing, we would have to say that some matter has always existed and that it is eternal like God. This idea would challenge God’s independence, his sovereignty, and the fact that worship is due to him alone. If matter existed apart from God, then what inherent right would God have to rule over it and use it for his glory? And what confidence could we have that every aspect of the universe will ultimately fulfill God’s purposes if some parts of it were not created by him?

The positive side of the fact that God created the universe out of nothing is that it has meaning and a purpose. God, in his wisdom, created it for something. We should try to understand that purpose and use creation in ways that fit that purpose, namely, to bring glory to God himself.1 Moreover, whenever the creation brings us joy (cf. 1 Tim. 6:17), we should give thanks to the God who made it all.


Grudem, Wayne A.. Bible Doctrine (p. 123). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

Why learned men . . . say God created the heaven and the earth out of nothing. Scholars of the history of Christian doctrine tell us that the idea of creation ex nihilo is a product of the hellenistic Christian era. Gerhard May in his work Creatio ex Nihilo: The Doctrine of 'Creation out of Nothing' in Early Christian Thought concludes that "in the second half of the second century the theological development begins which leads directly to the formulation of the church doctrine of creatio ex nihilo"; by "the beginning of the third century [it was] regarded as a fundamental tenet of Christian theology" (Creatio ex Nihilo, 148, 179). Of necessity the doctrine traces itself to Greek philosophy, having originated after traditional Christianity claims revelation to have ceased.

Baurau. The Hebrew word baurau rendered "created" in the Genesis account of the story of creation means "to form or to fashion." There is no thought in the word of the creation of something from nothing.

 The principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed. By revelation the Prophet stated: "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter" (D&C 131:7-8).



by Craig J. Ostler, Joseph Fielding McConkie

Chapter 9

 Incidentally, when Joseph suggests in the King Follett sermon that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, 25 he is essentially stating the law of conservation of mass-energy, a law currently and universally accepted in science but not known in his time. The Creation was an organization of preexisting matter. That this is our LDS belief—contrary to the theory of ex nihilo creation (out of nothing) of traditional Christianity and of creationism—has been clearly pointed out by numerous authors. 26


by David Clark


 A. The Doctrine of the Trinity Is Progressively Revealed in Scripture 1. Partial revelation in the Old Testament. The word trinity is never found in the Bible, though the idea represented by the word is taught in many places. The word trinity means “triunity” or “three-in-oneness.” It is used to summarize the teaching of Scripture that God is three persons yet one God. Sometimes people think the doctrine of the Trinity is only found in the New Testament, not in the Old. But if God has eternally existed as three persons, it would be surprising to find no indications of that in the Old Testament. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly found in the Old Testament, several passages suggest or even imply that God exists as more than one person. For instance, according to Genesis 1:26, God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” What do the plural verb (“let us”) and the plural pronoun (“our”) mean? Some have suggested they are plurals of majesty, a form of speech a king would use in saying, for example, “We are pleased to grant your request.” However, in Old Testament Hebrew there are no other examples of a monarch using plural verbs or plural pronouns of himself in such a “plural of majesty,” so this suggestion has no evidence to support it. Another suggestion is that God is here speaking to angels. But angels did not participate in the creation of man, nor was man created in the image and likeness of angels, so this suggestion is not convincing. The best explanation, and the one held almost unanimously by the church fathers and earlier theologians, is that already in the first chapter of Genesis we have an indication of a plurality of persons in God himself. We are not told how many persons, and we have nothing approaching a complete doctrine of the Trinity, but it is implied that more than one person is involved. The same can be said of Genesis 3:22 (“Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”), Genesis 11:7 (“Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language”), and Isaiah 6:8 (“Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”). (Note the combination of singular and plural in the same sentence in the last passage.) Moreover, there are passages where one person is called “God” or “the Lord” and is distinguished from another person who is also said to be God. In Psalm 45:6–7 (NIV), the psalmist says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever. . . . You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” Here the psalm passes beyond describing anything that could be true of an earthly king and calls the king “God” (v. 6), whose throne will last “for ever and ever.” But then, still speaking to the person called “God,” the author says that “God, your God, has set you above your companions” (v. 7). So two separate persons are called “God” (Heb. ʾElōhîm). In the New Testament, the author of Hebrews quotes this passage and applies it to Christ: “Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever” (Heb. 1:8). Similarly, in Psalm 110:1, David says, “The Lord says to my lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’ ” (NIV). Jesus rightly understands that David is referring to two separate persons as “Lord” (Matt. 22:41–46), but who is David’s “Lord” if not God himself? And who could be saying to God, “Sit at my right hand” except someone else who is also fully God?

From a New Testament perspective, we can paraphrase this verse: “God the Father said to God the Son, ‘Sit at my right hand.’ ” But even without the New Testament teaching on the Trinity, it seems clear that David was aware of a plurality of persons in one God. Isaiah 63:10 says that God’s people “rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit” (NIV), apparently suggesting both that the Holy Spirit is distinct from God himself (it is “his Holy Spirit”), and that this Holy Spirit can be “grieved,” thus suggesting emotional capabilities characteristic of a distinct person. Furthermore, several Old Testament passages about “the angel of the Lord” suggest a plurality of persons in God. The word translated “angel” (Heb. mal’ak) means simply “messenger.” If this angel of the Lord is a “messenger” of the Lord, he is then distinct from the Lord himself. Yet at some points the angel of the Lord is called “God” or “the Lord” (see Gen. 16:13; Ex. 3:2–6; 23:20–22; Num. 22:35 with 38; Judg. 2:1–2; 6:11 with 14).

At other points in the Old Testament “the angel of the Lord” simply refers to a created angel, but at least at these texts the special angel (or “messenger”) of the Lord seems to be a distinct person who is fully divine.

2. More complete revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament. When the New Testament opens, we enter the history of the coming of the Son of God to earth. It is to be expected that this great event would be accompanied by more explicit teaching about the trinitarian nature of God, and that is in fact what we find. Before looking at this in detail, we can simply list several passages where all three persons of the Trinity are named together. When Jesus was baptized, “the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’ ” (Matt. 3:16–17).

Here at one moment, we have three members of the Trinity performing three distinct activities. God the Father is speaking from heaven; God the Son is being baptized and is then spoken to from heaven by God the Father; and God the Holy Spirit is descending from heaven to rest upon and empower Jesus for his ministry. At the end of Jesus’ earthly ministry, he tells the disciples that they should go “and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19). The very names “Father” and “Son,” drawn as they are from the family, the most familiar of human institutions, indicate very strongly the distinct personhood of both the Father and the Son. When “the Holy Spirit” is put in the same expression and on the same level as the other two persons, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is also viewed as a person and of equal standing with the Father and the Son.


Grudem, Wayne A.. Bible Doctrine (p. 104). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

 Notice Joseph Smith changed his Godhead doctrine after 1835

Jesus also rose from the dead in a physical, human body, though one that was made perfect and was no longer subject to weakness, disease, or death. He demonstrates repeatedly to his disciples that he does have a real physical body. He says, “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). He is showing them and teaching them that he has “flesh and bones” and is not merely a “spirit” without a body. Another evidence of this fact is that “they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them” (Luke 24:42; cf. v. 30; John 20:17, 20, 27; 21:9, 13). In this same human body (though a resurrection body that was made perfect), Jesus also ascended into heaven. He said before he left, “I am leaving the world and going to the Father” (John 16:28; cf. 17:11). The way in which Jesus ascended up to heaven was calculated to demonstrate the continuity between his existence in a physical body here on earth and his continuing existence in that body in heaven. Just a few verses after Jesus had told them, “A spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39), we read in Luke’s gospel that Jesus “led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven” (Luke 24:50–51). Similarly, we read in Acts, “As they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight” (Acts 1:9). All of these verses taken together show that, as far as Jesus’ human body is concerned, it was like ours in every respect before his resurrection, and after his resurrection it was still a human body with “flesh and bones,” but made perfect, the kind of body that we will have when Christ returns and we are raised from the dead as well. 2 Jesus continues to exist in that human body in heaven, as the ascension is designed to teach.

Grudem, Wayne A.. Bible Doctrine (p. 229). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

Mormon blind guide writers try to tell their blind followers we teach Jesus dropped his body somewhere and doesn't have it anymore 

below Blind guide, Le Grand Richards teaches what he thinks we teach 😀 ​

Following his resurrection, Jesus appeared to many. While the eleven apostles were gathered together at Jerusalem discussing what had happened,

Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

But they were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:36-39.)

To further prove that he had his body, he took a piece of broiled fish and of honeycomb and did eat before them.

With his resurrected body he ascended to heaven in the presence of five hundred brethren: . . . he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once. . . ." (1 Corinthians 15:6.)

His apostles saw him ascend into heaven and the "two men [who] stood by them in white apparel" affirmed the fact:

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:10-11.)

If Jesus is one in spirit with his Father, without body or form, so large that he fills the universe and so small that he dwells in each heart, as so many believe and as the churches teach, then what meaning has the resurrection which is commemorated each Easter in the Christian churches, and what did he do with his body after he showed it to his apostles and others?

"A Marvelous Work and A Wonder" Le Grand Richards pp 19-20

 The Incommunicable Attributes of God 1. Independence. God’s independence is defined as follows: God does not need us or the rest of creation for anything, yet we and the rest of creation glorify him and bring him joy. This attribute of God is sometimes called his self-existence or his aseity (from the Latin words a se, which mean “from himself”). Scripture in several places teaches that God does not need any part of creation in order to exist or for any other reason. God is absolutely independent and self-sufficient. Paul proclaims to the men of Athens, “The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything” (Acts 17:24–25). The implication is that God does not need anything from mankind. (See also Job 41:11; Psalm 50:10–12.)

 Grudem, Wayne A. (2014-10-27T23:58:59). Bible Doctrine . Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

 W. Cleon Skousen, a former BYU professor, wrote:


Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such.... But since God 'acquired' the honor and sustaining influence of 'all things' it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate.... 'He would cease to be God.' Our Heavenly Father can do only those things which the intelligences under Him are voluntarily willing to support Him in accomplishing (The First 2000 Years, pp. 355-356).


Evidence in Scripture. In Psalm 102 we find a contrast between things which we may think to be permanent such as the earth or the heavens, on the one hand, and God, on the other hand. The psalmist says: Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you endure; they will all wear out like a garment. You change them like raiment, and they pass away; but you are the same, and your years have no end. (Ps. 102:25–27).3 God existed before the heavens and earth were made, and he will exist long after they have been destroyed. God causes the universe to change, but in contrast to this change he is “the same.” Referring to his own qualities of patience, long-suffering, and mercy, God says, “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed” (Mal. 3:6). Here God uses a general statement of his unchangeableness to refer to some specific ways in which he does not change.

 “God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or be spoken, and will he not fulfil it?” (Num. 23:19; cf. 1 Sam. 15:29).

 Grudem, Wayne A. (2014-10-27T23:58:59). Bible Doctrine . Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.


As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.

Author: Lorenzo Snow

Source: Gospel Through The Ages

Chapter: 43

Page: 105


"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder

heavens. That is the great secret... …I am going to tell you how God came to be

God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will

refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the

first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and

to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to

know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods

yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done

before you... (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in

 Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol.

6, 305-307,)"




Thursday, February 4, 2021

Strange teachings from the First Presidency of the Mormon religion


The teaching I'm going to show come from this book

Notice that Joseph Smith taught the King James version was correct and his own version differs from the King James Version and changes the meaning to what he was using this particular verse about a plurality of gods  

Rev 1:6 And unto him who loved us be glory, who washed us from our sins in his own blood and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Joseph Smith Translation 

He also taught the Godhead was three gods when his pre-1836 canon taught ONE GOD


The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the God of the Athanasian Creed

Question: "May I raise a question about one of your statements? You state that in the year A.D. 325 the bishops of the church 'rejected the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and substituted the Athanasian Creed.' For me this statement needs clarification. May I inquire in what respect 'the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' differs from the God as stated in the Athanasian Creed?"

Answer: The God of Abraham came down to visit Abraham and instruct him on several occasions, as he did likewise to others of the prophets. So Abraham became acquainted with our Heavenly Father and knew him. All I need to do to show that the God of Athanasius is not the God of Abraham is to refer to three points.

If you know Joseph Fielding Smith had taught it was Jesus who walk and talked with Abraham

1. The creed says that God is "incomprehensible," confounding the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This certainly is in conflict with what is written in the scriptures:

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremias 31:34. (All references for this answer are quoted from Challoner's Authorized Catholic Bible. Same references can be checked in the King James Version.))

Then in that wonderful soul-stirring prayer of our Savior to his Father, shortly before his crucifixion, he prayed:

Now this is everlasting life, that they may know thee, the only true God, and him whom thou hast sent, Jesus Christ. (John 17:3.)

The Bible and Book of Mormon are clear God is incomprehensible 

Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)
Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8–9)
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33–34; cf. Job 42:1–6; Ps. 139:6, 17–18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10–11; 1 Tim. 6:13–16)

These verses teach that not only is God’s whole being incomprehensible but each of his attributes—his greatness, power, thoughts, ways, wisdom, and judgments—are well beyond human ability to fathom fully. Not only can we never know everything there is to know about God, we can never know everything there is to know about even one aspect of God’s character or work.

James E. Talmage Mormon faux Elder
Articles of Faith
Chapter 2
God is Omniscient—By Him matter has been organized and energy directed. He is therefore the Creator of all things that are created; and "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." 58 His power and His wisdom are alike incomprehensible to man, for they are infinite. Being Himself eternal and perfect, His knowledge cannot be otherwise than infinite. To comprehend Himself, an infinite Being, He must possess an infinite mind. Through the agency of angels and ministering servants He is in continuous communication with all parts of creation, and may personally visit as He may determine.
Mormon 9:16
16 Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?


2. The creed is at fault in stating that there are not "three Eternals" but "one Eternal," thus confounding the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, when the scriptures are definitely clear that the three members of the Godhead are separate and distinct from each other; each with a definite mission to perform. The Savior told his apostles that when he went away he would send them the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost.

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your mind whatsoever I have said to you. (John 14:26.)

Here we have the promise that the Son would go but the Advocate, or Holy Spirit, would be sent to be with the apostles.

3. In the fact that the creed declares that in the Trinity, "None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-Eternal together, and Co-Equal" we find a conflict which is contrary to what is written in the scriptures. Arius, at that council, tried to establish one truth that was rejected. That is, that there never was a Son that was not younger than his Father, but the creed emphatically declares that the Son, as well as the Father, is "Uncreate."

The Creeds do tell us Jesus was inferior or subservient to the Father 

"Man and all forms of life existed as spirit beings and entities before the foundations of this earth were laid. There were spirit men and spirit beasts, spirit fowls and spirit fishes, spirit plants and spirit trees. Every creeping thing, every herb and shrub, every amoeba and tadpole, every elephant and dinosaur—all things—existed as spirits, as spirit beings, before they were placed naturally upon the earth” (The Millennial Messiah, 642–43).

In Hebrews we find it written:

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, And let all the angels of God adore him. (Hebrews 1:6.)

If Christ is the Firstborn, it must have been in the pre-existence before the earth was formed. According to what is written we are all the offspring of God, as Paul declared in Athens:

For in him we live and move and have our being, as indeed some of your own poets have said,

For we are also his offspring.

If therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to imagine that Divinity is like gold or silver or stone, to an image graven by human art and thought. (Acts 17:27-29.)

Christ is, of course, the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that those who believe in him may not perish, but have life everlasting. (John 3:16.)


Contrary to the creed, Jesus Christ has said:

You have heard me say to you, if you love me, you would indeed rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28.)

Jesus answered them and said, My teaching is not my own, but his who sent me.

If anyone desires to do his will, he will know of the teachings whether it is from God, or whether I speak on my own authority. (John 7:16-17.)

Paul has written:

For he must reign, until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

And the last enemy to be destroyed will be death.

For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are subject to him, undoubtedly he is excepted who has subjected all things to him.

And when all things are made subject to him, then the Son himself will also be made subject to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:25-28.)

Moreover, when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane he prayed to his Father, saying:

Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will but thine be done. (Luke 22:42.)

Thus he sought in prayer something which the Father denied him.

These passages are a few which show that the Athanasian Creed was not inspired by the Father, but was man-made. On the occasion there was no revelation given; nor was one sought. To the contrary, men contended, bitterness followed, and there came a division among them. They had no prophet to speak, no divine word of the Lord was received, but merely the opinions of men who lacked inspiration.

“What do Latter-day Saints believe about grace? We believe that God’s grace is what ultimately saves us; yet it does not save us without our doing all that we can to live God’s commandments and follow Jesus Christ’s teachings. We do not believe salvation comes by simply confessing belief in Christ as our Savior. Faith, works, ordinances, and grace are all necessary” (Ensign, March 2013, p. 21).

"Man and all forms of life existed as spirit beings and entities before the foundations of this earth were laid. There were spirit men and spirit beasts, spirit fowls and spirit fishes, spirit plants and spirit trees. Every creeping thing, every herb and shrub, every amoeba and tadpole, every elephant and dinosaur—all things—existed as spirits, as spirit beings, before they were placed naturally upon the earth” (The Millennial Messiah, 642–43).